(product in problem : Witch Hazel Toner, unscented, non-alcohol.)
This is (hopefully) to be my final posting on Madre Labs. I just want to have the related facts listed here for my future reference, after which I shall stop bothering myself with the issue. I find it unrewarding to communicate with a brand which will not face the problem straight out. These people need to understand what customer claim really means, that it is they who need to make the effort and communicate, instead of sending back (may I say) improper replies.
My husband said that he fully is ready to communicate as far as it gets with the brand (customer center, chemist in charge, or whoever) but that, I will think it over. I mean, come on, we're dealing with a brand which is not even officially on sales in Korea (and which will continue to remain that way in the future...) and I don't feel like wasting effort in talking them out. But I would very much like to share my not-so-pleasant experience with whoever happens to read this posting.
Anyway, to save myself the trouble of jotting down every detail, I will list the emails that I have exchanged so far with Madre Labs customer center and add a quick view summary at the head. Summaries will be boxed in blue, and I may thrust in my comments in between lines, which I will mark in red.
<MYSELF : 26 Jan.>
Summary :
- Disputed material was not glass fiber, but not aloe percipitate either.
- It was benzoic acid crystal, which should not exist in the product, if according to the stated formula.
(For more detailed explanations : http://msds.tistory.com/43)
- Demand for a thorough quality check-up on product and proof that given problem has been improved
Full Text :
<Madre Labs : 26 Jan.>
Summary :
- We replied within 24 hours, so why did you share the issue with others.
- Have you read the ingredients? We have sodum benzoate included in formua, as preservative.
- (and the email included a list of questions. Let me quote a few of them. "Do we instruct peopel to use our toner in their eyes?" or "Why do you dislike our product?" or... I could go on. One really needs to see the full text to grasp the tone, which is why I have attached the entire email below.)
Full text :
(My notes : Sodium benzoate is legitimately used in the formula as preservative and it is not this substance that we called into question. It is benzoic acid crystal, which we presume was produced due to unforeseen chemical reaction, and it was this by-product which I claim poses potential dangers to the user. I did not once suggest that ML may not use a preservative system. Do stick to the point, guys.)
- Do you see that we use Sodium Benzoate in our formula?
- Are you aware that Sodium Benzoate is used as a preservative and is considered GRAS?
- Are you aware that we need to use a preservative system?
- Who conducted your testing in less than one day?
- Can you provide the name of the Lab and the test methods?
- Why would you test our product without waiting for our reply?
- What did your test results find? (It looks like your lab found that our toner did indeed contain Sodium Benzoate.)
- Do we instruct people to use our toner in their eyes or do we instruct them to ' Avoid Contact With Eyes '?
- There is nothing wrong with our formula and it is safe to use, in fact many of our customers love our toners.
- Why do you dislike our product?
- Why are you claiming that the product is not safe for topical use? Please qualify your claims.
- Why should we hold off on sales?
- What problems do we need to amend?
Additional email :
(My notes : Wow, they're asking a lot, for a brand which won't do much in return.)
<MYSELF : 27 Jan.>
Summary :
- As customer, I reported suspicions, which I am entitled to share with others.
- Once the customer files a quality complaint, the burden of proof should be upon the manufacturer, ML in this case.
- ML's initial email showed no signs that it will implement a proper test.
- As for the other questions, I will hold my answers as I find them inappropriate (and rude.)
Full text :
I said I found substances "suspected of being glass fiber" but I most certainly added that in-depth lab test was needed.
Things would have been different if I had "confirmed" the material to be glass fiber but I said that it "looked close enough and further test was needed." Now I would like to have one decent reason why I should not be able to share such allegations, either with iHerb, with my blog readers, or any of my acquaintances. I find it inconvenient and out of place that you should accuse me of sharing my observations with others, especially as my statement was not final and therefore not false.
Once the customer files a complaint on the quality of the product, the burden of proof should be upon the manufacturer, to find out the cause of the problem or to make the customer understand that there is indeed nothing wrong with the product.
Though it wasn't up to me to prove, I took the trouble of having the material tested, and I gave you the back-up facts. (which you didn't at all in your initial email.)
In your email, question No. 6, you ask "why I tested the product without waiting for your reply," but your reply had absolutely no answer to my problems, nor did it imply that you will make any efforts of the sort. You just said that the material was aloe-based. The test took place right after I received your initial email. Once I saw how you pushed me for answers, without offering me a single reason to believe your claim, I decided it would be better if I suggested any tangible result myself. (By the way, the test would not even have taken place if your email had not been so rude and pushy...)
As for other aggressive questions that you listed, I shall hold my answers. For example, "Why do you dislike our product?" This question is based on your (frustrated, it seems to me) presumption that I am going through all this trouble simply because I "don't like Madre Labs." I have suggested in sufficient details that I have found plausible quality faults in the product and I have so far obtained no rational explanation from you, but just accusations.
(My notes : I tried, oh man did I try, to remain as polite and reasonable as I could.)
<Madre Labs : 27 Jan.>
Summary :
They decided to jot in their replies in between, adding up to my previous email.
Full text :
- Would it be fair for us to want to conduct our own in-depth lab analysis with your bottle of product and the crystals seen in your pictures?
- How quickly do you think we could investigate your claim?
- Don't you think we would need to see your actual bottle of toner to investigate this properly?
Let me remind you (and it is absurd that I should even do this) that I have the right as customer to suggest allegations and demand for explanations, based upon these unfounded circumstances.
- Did we once say that you could not ask questions and have genuine concerns?
- Are we not allowed to ask questions to get clarification or should we not respond?
- Why do you have to 'demand '? Why not just ask and await our reply?
- Why not work with us so we can better assist?
Things would have been different if I had "confirmed" the material to be glass fiber but I said that it "looked close enough and further test was needed." Now I would like to have one decent reason why I should not be able to share such allegations, either with iHerb, with my blog readers, or any of my acquaintances. I find it inconvenient and out of place that you should accuse me of sharing my observations with others, especially as my statement was not final and therefore not false.
- Ask him how an Alcohol-Free product with the 1st ingredient being ' Water ' can be Free of a Preservative System?
- How would microbes be controlled in a product like this?
- Please be aware that Grapefruit Seed Extract is not a natural preservative.
- How is this competitive product so crystal clear?
Nine times out of 10 natural/organic-type ingredients impart color to a product like this unless the majority of ingredients are used in very small %'s.
Two :Once the customer files a complaint on the quality of the product, the burden of proof should be upon the manufacturer, to find out the cause of the problem or to make the customer understand that there is indeed nothing wrong with the product.Though it wasn't up to me to prove, I took the trouble of having the material tested, and I gave you the back-up facts. (which you didn't at all in your initial email.)
- How quickly do you think a typical investigation takes, especially when dealing with an overseas (you mention Korea so we assume you are in Korea) customer?
- What do you think is a fair amount of time?
- Please share the ' fully certified chemical test ' for our review.
- Who ' fully certified ' your testing?
In your email, question No. 6, you ask "why I tested the product without waiting for your reply," but your reply had absolutely no answer to my problems, nor did it imply that you will make any efforts of the sort. You just said that the material was aloe-based. The test took place right after I received your initial email. Once I saw how you pushed me for answers, without offering me a single reason to believe your claim, I decided it would be better if I suggested any tangible result myself. (By the way, the test would not even have taken place if your email had not been so rude and pushy...)
- How can we truly investigate something without having the product to inspect?
Three :As for other aggressive questions that you listed, I shall hold my answers. For example, "Why do you dislike our product?" This question is based on your (frustrated, it seems to me) presumption that I am going through all this trouble simply because I "don't like Madre Labs." I have suggested in sufficient details that I have found plausible quality faults in the product and I have so far obtained no rational explanation from you, but just accusations.
To be honest, I do not even have the desire to speak further with a brand which is facing the matter straight out and which just keeps accusing the customer for bringing up a problem. So, I first watch and see how you respond to my complaints in this email and then decide whether or not to communicate more on the lab information and other things that you asked.
(My notes : They claim to have been accurate and truthful, and they deny the aggressiveness. Well... Let me put it this way. That's why I am listing all the emails here without a single correction. The judgment is each person's to make.)
<Madre Labs : 28 Jan.>
Summary :
- We have passed on the issue to our chemist.
- Can you ship the product to the U.S. for review?
- and the fully certified chemical test? and the related info?.
Full text :
(My notes : Buh bye, now. I just hope that Google's search engine finds this intriguing and classifies this as a priority. BTW, my last posting would pop up on the first page, when one types in Madre Labs on Google. That posting is title "suspected glass fiber," which I would have corrected after the last test result but I admit, I no longer feel the need to.)